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Obama Reacts to House Prohibition of Abortion Funding

Baby in Womb By Selwyn Duke

In a legislative clash that pitted Democrats against their fellows,
the House voted Saturday to pass the Stupak Amendment. Sponsored by
Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.), Brad Ellsworth, (D-Ind.) and Joe Pitts,
(R-Pa.), the measure prohibits federal money from being used to fund
abortion through the Democrats’ 1,990-page healthcare plan.

The amendment passed by the comfortable margin of 240-194, with
every Republican and 64 Democrats voting yay. Alex Wayne at CQ.com
provides the details, writing:

Read the rest here.

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59 responses to “Obama Reacts to House Prohibition of Abortion Funding”

  1. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Its beyond disgusting how far people will go to justify a political ideal. Be it for power or insanity. Or both.
    The pro choice crowd can never answer a question I pose. What is so magical about passing through a vagina that gives a supposed non person, personhood? And they cant say “the law” (thats the equivalent of saying “because I said so”, not a justification)
    They can never answer the question, they always dodge it, say the law or the will of the people(same thing), or go off on a tangent about “what about rape or incest” or some other disgusting notion about how im “killing millions of potential babies” if im not having sex with my wife when shes menstruating. (It really is impossible to keep a liberal on the internet to stay on topic)
    Its all about the justification to sin, and not suffer the consequences. “Well what about the womans choice” The woman had a choice in 99% of the cases. Its called keeping her legs closed. In those 99% of cases, the woman made her choice. To have sex. Sex is an action, and actions have consequences. But the selfish don’t want consequences. But someone has to bear the burden. Someone has to pay the price. And they make the child pay…the ultimate earthly price.

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  2. Shaun Avatar
    Shaun

    I have a question in regards to Obama’s position on the infant born alive act. I remember hearing him speak in the democratic primaries about abortion and to the best of my knowledge Obama said he voted against this act because there was already a law in place that banned leaving infants to die after failed abortions and that the new act had strings attached to it. Does anyone have knowledge of this? I know that Obama is pro-Abortion and could easily make a case to show it but I dont know if using his vote against the born alive act is a viable point. Anyone know?
    Shaun

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  3. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Dan, maybe it’s your relgious beliefs, maybe it’s your attitudes to women but the simple answer to your question (be it vaginal birth or caesarean) is viablity. When you create artifical wombs without consciousness, you will be able to implant as many embryos as you want and sue the manufacturers if they dont work. But until then if you are relying on a concious human agency to develop the embryo with many risks to their own health and well being in the process you dont have a say. Slavery of whatever kind is still slavery, I would not want to have been born due to the forced act of reproductive slavery and that if you reduce it is what you are arguing for.
    Before the wingnuts explode I AM NOT SAYING ALL PREGNANCIES ARE SLAVERY. OK? Is that out of the way? what I AM saying is that until the point of viability I cant see how you can force women to carry an unwanted child. For a good friend of mine the decision that she and her husband faced was carrying a much wanted babay to term that would almost certainly die within a week and had incredible risks for her own fertility and health or a late term abortion. The “pro-lifers” i have met would prefer both deaths mother and child, they dont care a stuff about her surviving children or husband either.

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  4. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    A brief time out from your non existence.
    This is just a reminder yoyo, you do not exist. I couldn’t care less about what you, an internet troll, think or what you have to say about me. So stop addressing me. I wouldn’t read your comments if someone paid me.
    Back to your non existence.

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  5. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Yoyo is once again wrong. I wish Selwyn’s site had a bell for this (but, then again, maybe not – for it would ever be wringing).
    Yoyo, EVERY life (including the conception thereof) is a miracle. It is a phenomenon. It is unexplained by all of the wizards and sorcerers whose opinions you mite cite to the contrary.
    Our worldwide scientific community can analyze and explain every aspect of life and biology except this disturbing fact: How it happens. The answer is in the realm of the metaphysical. Let me explain:
    We know of cell structure. We know of the enzymes and proteins and amino acids and alkali and other chemical components; of DNA and its double-helix structure and messenger-RNA that may constitute the living cell. We understand what occurs during the gestation period and we are tiresomely familiar with development outside of the womb.
    What CANNOT be perceived via the five senses that we humans share in common is HOW this protoplasmic amalgamation develops into a human life. For lack of more astute analyses, this can therefore be classified as a miracle and in the realm of the metaphysical.
    You have attacked poster Dan who rightly recognizes the priceless value of human life. Dan has rightly and righteously criticized the stated and on-record position of the POTUS who regards human life as a ”choice” made not by the viable child, but by staff and attendants at a hospital. That such disregard for the sanctity of human life is permissible by a man occupying our Oval Office is cause for every living being to oppose him.
    Your sob story of your “friend” moved not a one of us. They made the wrong choice. Every birth is a miracle and your “friend” should have expected one, or at least prayed for one too.
    Lastly, State Senator Obama lobbied that what you describe as a “vital” fetus (are you REALLY this heartless, this soulless?) is worthy of extermination. By this position he is an advocate of murder. He is a vile human being and a criminal. This is an article of impeachment under the statute of High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Thanks for the tip.
    Yoyo, your twisted sense of logic and social equilibrium does not resonate here. It is not that we take pleasure in being right. It is that there is only ONE “right”. You have failed in nearly every one of your utterances to embrace this. I ask myself, incredulously, how can you possibly revisit this site, read the articles and the ensuing commentary and not learn a bloody THING?
    Your penance should be to tune into Michael Savage’s radio show (via Internet, Pod Cast or whatever) for three consecutive months. You need this for your mental health and for the world’s social well being.
    PS I noticed that you responded to this article. I presume, therefore, that you now have the energy after your globetrotting to be able to address the previous article’s blogstream. Why did you not fulfill the promise of revisiting your last post? Might it be because you are still awaiting talking points from PuffenstuffPost.com or other lying leftie sites? Or were my points another walk-off presentation of inarguable facts?

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  6. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    He supposedly voted against it cause there wasn’t a neutrality clause, which i think there was. He voted against it cause this law was much stronger than the loop hole filled old one.

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  7. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Phil, I’ve obviously stirred a hornets nest here. I know a number of “right to lifers” and acknowledge their passion, I just dont agree. It does not make them monsters or myself either. Should you GUYs really want to stop all abortions then it may be useful to your cause to understand the thinking of those who dont agree with you. I know I’m throwing words at a brick wall – whenever I try and carefully spell out my position with no insults, I get a meltdown from the posters here, particularly Dan. (Somehow I have never thought of a child as a valid punishment for some strange concept of sin, if that was the case where is the “punishment” for males, or do only women sin?)
    So leaving aside what is a very vengeful theology, I agree with you Phil to some extent, consciousness is an amazing, precious, almost unlikely thing. I dont think it is unexplanable but it is rare and to be treasured.
    Despite what some of the more nasty pro lifers think, women generally dont go having terminations because a baby wont match their shoes this season. I’m not sure what you think Julie and Nat should have done. You claim they made the wrong decision, that they should have prayed and waited for a miracle. Leaving aside the callousness of this comment (which probably wasn’t meant), how dare you assume they didn’t? Can you really believe that each test wasn’t awaited with prayer, tears and dread?
    (Finally and as an aside, yes i am home now but not sure which thread you mean. Dan doesn’t want me to comment at all but I do try and keep touch, the antifrancophiles here might be pleased to know that this website is hard to access in the french colonies and, on an even lighter note, french colonialists are almost enough to make me totally anti french too LOL)

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  8. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    BTW Dan, I was not being flip, I really would like to hear any positive ideas on how you would support women who really do not want to be pregnant.

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  9. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Dearest yoyo,
    Please compare this: “whenever I try and carefully spell out my position with no insults,”
    With this: “Despite what some of the more nasty pro lifers think”.
    How is this not an insult?
    “You claim they made the wrong decision, that they should have prayed and waited for a miracle.”
    I did not say that they should have waited for a miracle. I said: “Every birth is a miracle and your “friend” should have expected one”. To your credit, I will concede that it is difficult to expect and maintain for supernatural intervention when one is suffering. However, I adamantly insist that this would not be so but for the continued attacks against people of faith that the community of faith overall is weakened.
    It is written: “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much”. (James 5:16).
    It is written: “That if two of you shall agree on earth as toughing any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of (by) my Father which is in heaven.” (Mathew 18:19).
    It is written: “Be careful (anxious, have anxiety) for nothing; but in EVERY thing by prayer and supplication WITH thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
    And the peace of God, which PASSETH ALL understanding shall keep (guard, protect) your hearts AND minds through Christ Jesus.” – Emphasis mine. (Philippians 4:6-7).
    Escrito esta, Dearest yoyo. It is written. These are guarantees offered to you by the Creator of the heavens and the earth. There are more than 900 of such promises. How many do you know of, which follows that how few of them can you claim, if you are ignorant thereof?
    I appreciate the civil tone of your last post.

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  10. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    “I really would like to hear any positive ideas on how you would support women who really do not want to be pregnant.”
    How about trying on this for size, since you and your fellow-travellers claim to be pro-“choice”.
    Choice #1: Abstinence.
    Choice #2: Contraception (shall we elaborate on the countless methods?).
    Choice #3: Accepting responsibility of one’s lapse in judgement and accepting one’s pregnancy for the miracle that it is and actually keeping and raising the precious miracle of human life.
    Choice #4: Adoption into a loving family, particularly with a loving heterosexual couple who yearn for children, but cannot experience the joy and miracle of conception.
    Leftists oppose these choices. How can anyone with a logical and sound and wholesome brian claim that they are pro-“choice” by dismissing these valid choices? Answer: They cannot. It is impossible.
    This is a glaring example of the lies that you accept as “truth” and illigimate dogma. Leftists claim that murdering and/or exterminating the most innocent and precious of life is a “choice”, despite the myriad of actual choices that I outlined above.
    This is a classic example of the Leftist practice of calling something (in this case “choice”) that which it is not, for the precious miracle of new human life does not participate in this “choice”.
    Darling yoyo, you are on the wrong side of life, of light and of logic. Give it up.
    You have shared with us that you are a mother. Perhaps you have seen a sonogram of your gestating child. How on earth can you possibly support such barbarism? How can you find even ONE circumstance where abortion can be condoned?
    Spare us the rare circumstances of rape and incest. I can bury you with an avalanche of articles of the surviving victims of such horrors. In every case, the resulting child is thankful to be alive. Show us even ONE case where the mother’s life was in peril where her pregnancy was a direct threat. Let me save you the time: there aren’t any.

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  11. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Phil but what do you say to the many that pray but are not answered? does your god love them less? does he/she/it think that suffering is good? Let’s face it, in some of my considerable trials on this planet i have prayed but I never really expected they would be answered, because for every self satisfied christian who says god cured their cancer, made their team win, or gave them a promotion, there’s another individual who has had their kid kidnapped and murdered and never gets a body, or whose loved parent dies in pain. I am not an anti religious bigot, in my teen years i even wanted to be a nun for a whole few months but the philospophical disconnect that comes when you parse through religious faith makes it too difficult. How does one give their life over to a supernatural being with omnipotence who chooses to let parasitic flies feed on african children. Maybe you can, (there is much that is beautiful and worthy in relgious litergy and art for example) but as a world view, Nuh.

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  12. matt Avatar
    matt

    Not to give fuel to yoyo’s burning out fire. But there are medically cases where a womans life could be in danger if the baby isn’t aborted. For instance, it is possible for an egg to land in the wall of the fallopian tubes and for it to get fertilized, and the fetus to take root there. Potentially causing great harm to a woman. Usually these self abort when the body recognizes there is a problem but once in a great while, it doesn’t. But of course, that would be one of those times where common sense would kick in and people who employ common sense, would conclude that it is NECESSARY to abort the fetus. Including the most devout christian. In 99% of the cases it is not ever necessary to abort a fetus.
    But you may have not been referring to such a case.

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  13. walt Avatar
    walt

    The typical leftist argument for abortion is “what if the mother’s life is in jeopardy or in cases of rape incest?”
    The last figure I have read these two dynamics account for 3% of the abortions performed in America. Now the 3% is 300% higher than Philip’s estimate if you want to use the Algore tactic of statistical manipulation but 3% is a very low figure. I still don’t know why we as conservatives don’t just fall back and concede the abortions in those cases for the time being and save 97 out of 100 murders. In the mean time we stand by and watch the next Martin Luther King, Jonas Salk, Ronald Regan, Mother Teresa and Albert Einstein get murdered before their first breath of air (or after in some cases). So in the mean time I am investing in millstones; they are sure to be in short supply.

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  14. Robert Berger Avatar
    Robert Berger

    The sheer hypocrisy of those who are aghast at the aghast at the possibility of the Obama admnistration subsidizing abortions for poor women and yet don’t want the government to prodive help for poor pregnant women so they might be able to take decent care of their children, born or unborn, never ceases toamaze me.
    “Nooo-we musn’t do that. It’s socialism, and we don’t want that in America do we ?”
    If conservatives don’t want poor women to be able to provide decent food,shelter,clothing and medical care for their unwanted babies, they shouldn’t object to government funding of abortions.
    And don’t give me all this nonsense about adoption. That’s not a realistic thing. We already have enough poor children growing up in poverty, filth, malnutrition,poor education and crime. Give me a break.

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  15. Robert Berger Avatar
    Robert Berger

    Pardon. That should read “provide”, not “prodive”. Slip of the finger.

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  16. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Robert,
    I know way too many people that have been trying to adopt newborns for years to accept the fact that children should be euthanized to prevent poverty. Your blood lust of the innocent is sickening.

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  17. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Walt to call roberts position blood lust is just wrong.
    The issue about lack of support for pregnant women and those with new babies is valid.
    This from a married woman is why we women find the disconnect between the rhetoric and reality so appalling.
    “It’s this very thing that sent me into the arms of the Anglicans. I added premature twins to my family of two other children. My mother was unable to come help me, and suggested I ask the church for help. I was sure they wouldn’t help me, but she called, and they said they couldn’t help. She then called the long distance operator and explained her plight, and they helped her connect with a home-help service to send a nice woman to help me until I got back on my feet. She got more help in a crisis concerning newborn babies from the PHONE COMPANY than from the Catholic Church.
    Then when I took all my children to mass, the priest would go on and on about the sanctity of life and choosing life, even though when I needed someone to help me after choosing life, they weren’t there. I’d sit in the pew steaming, thinking that this man, who had no idea what it was like to give birth to and take care of one, never mind two, new babies, could tell me what I should do, and then go home to the quiet house, bigger than mine, which I helped pay for, and get an uninterrupted night’s sleep, while I was awakened every two hours by my “Gifts from God.”
    Adoption isn’t a neat option, I say that knowing my next door neighbour is struggling to adopt another child but also knowing how few people will adopt babies with disabilities or older children with problems and after viewing the disgusting abuse of children left to church run orphanages in the 40-60s.
    So Walt and Sean, to believe that at least some of this potential life is better off ceasing to exist before consciousness is not blood lust, and to claim it is when you know that the alternative may well be a life of pain neglect sexual abuse and poverty is cruel.For every blond bouncing babe snapped up at birth by celebrities, there’s a hundred addicted, or non white or disabled babies left to suffer with no support at all.

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  18. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    PS I meant to add the last part of her statement Incidentally, that priest had to leave the priesthood. The young man he was dallying with was (barely) over 18, so he didn’t go to prison, like the other priest from the same parish, whose chosen one was younger.
    Maybe she was better off not getting “support” from this particular church if it would have given the priest access to her children.

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  19. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Dear yoyo,
    Here is what I say:
    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”. Hosea 4:6
    What knowledge do you think the Prophet of God referred to? Knowledge of science, medicine, architecture, engineering, putting condoms on cucumbers? Of course not. For all but the latter, there are marvels in human knowledge that are abundantly in manifestation. The Prophet referred to the lack of knowledge of God, which has been made known through his written word.
    Before I go on, I compliment you for your genuine inquiry and the civility of your tone.
    Back to your opening question: Have you ever wondered why devout Jews have been the overwhelming recipients of Nobel prizes (while they were still prestigious)? Have you ever wondered why (perhaps this is not as obvious in your country as it is in the US) Jews and Mormons, in general, are very affluent (Gov. Mitt Romney is just one of many examples)? It is because they strictly practice the Biblical concept of tithing. The laws of God are as immutable, if not more so, than the laws of nature. They work every time that they are adhered to. Without fail.
    Very few “believers” understand how to pray. Even fewer understand that there are two ways to pray: a) Prayer by one’s understanding (most everyone has practiced this) and b) To pray by the spirit (I Corinthians, chapters 12-14 addresses this in minute detail).
    Most Christians recite what we all understand as “The Lord’s Prayer” (Our Father, who art in heaven, etc.”) without realizing that this prayer was NEVER meant to be repeated verbatim. In fact, in just a few verses prior, our Lord warned us against such “vain repetitions” (Matt. 6:7). Instead, he gave an example of how one should pray with one’s own understanding. Please allow me to break it down for you:
    “Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name. They kingdom come, (would that) thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. This is acknowledging our Loving Creator, His holy name, and his omnipotence and omniscience.
    “Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. Notice that this is a demand: “Give us” and “forgive us” and not a conditional request whereby one might be denied. Incidentally, our forgiveness is no longer conditional on our willingness to “forgive those who trespass against us”. This prayer was made prior to suffering of Christ, his resurrection and his ascendance on high in glory and his giving of the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. Our forgiveness is now conditioned solely and eternally on our confession with our mouths the Lordship of Jesus the Nazarene and our belief that God has raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9,10).
    The “Lord’s Prayer” continues: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”. Once again, this is a demand (“lead us not”) and not a subjective request.
    The prayer concludes with further acknowledgement of God’s omnipotence and omniscience: “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever, Amen.”
    In just a few short verses, our Lord gave us an EXAMPLE of how to approach our Heavenly Father in prayer and how to structure the prayer for maximum effect.
    The things of the spirit, as they are written in the New Testament of the Holy Bible are transliterated from the Greek word “pneumatikos”. The root “pnuema” or “spirit” is the same word as the word for “wind” (i.e. “pneumonia”, “pneumatic tools”). By comparison, one can never perceive wind via the five senses. We register the effects thereof, but we do not see, hear, taste, touch or smell wind. Likewise, the things of the spirit (“pneumatikos”) are unperceivable via the senses. Yes, we register the effects, we witness the results, but we do not “see” spiritual matters. This requires faith.
    We all have faith to some degree. When we sit in a chair, we have “faith” that the chair will support us. There is perhaps no greater faith than entering an elevator or an airplane.
    What is “faith”? It is the state of being fully persuaded.
    Interestingly, the word “faith” as used in the Bible is translated from the Greek word “pistis”. This is the very same word, which is also translated into the English word “believe/believing”. Is there a difference? Of course there is. But the differences must be examined in consideration of the context of the passage and the flow of each sentence.
    In a nutshell, when “pistis” is translated as “believe/believing” it refers to mental assent. You accept as fact, without really knowing. If it should be translated “faith” it means that the subject is fully persuaded. This occurs only when one is assured of the Integrity of God’s Holy Word on any given subject. This requires study (see II Timothy 2:15).
    So how does one obtain “faith”, since this is requisite in understanding “pneumatikos”, or matters of the spirit? Dust off your Bible and turn to The Epistle of Paul to the Romans, chapter 10, verse 17: “So then faith (pistis) cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of God.” In fact, any fledgling Christian should master the Book of Romans, which is the first in order of only seven books of the Bible that are directly written to our current state of being.
    Lastly I will conclude with this anecdote:
    September 11th, 2001. I left my home with my children about 6:30am, intent on taking them to school and then beginning my workday. I received a call from my ex-wife (and ignored the urge to let the call go to voice-mail) who knows that I do not watch TV nor pay attention to any mainstream news. [P] “Hello?” [D] “Did you hear what happened?” [P] “No, but I’ll bet you are going to tell me”. [D] “A plane has crashed into the World Trade Center, then another one, and they’re saying that another one flew into The Pentagon”. [P] Dear God, Veronica (my sister). [D] Oh, that’s right – she works there! Oh, I’m so sorry! [P] “I gotta go” .
    I phoned my Dad to see if he had any further information. This fearless ROCK of a man, a Korean war veteran and recipient of two, TWO Purple Hearts was an incoherent and blubbering mess.
    I turned to my children and said, “There has been an awful event. Aunt Veronica may be in danger. Pray and trust God. Michael, what are you going to do? [M] “Pray and trust God”. Sarah, my sweetheart? [S] “Daddy, I will pray and trust God. I’ll be brave”. I took them to school and promised to notify them (and my words here were deliberate) that I would call as soon as I know that Aunt Veronica is safe. I dropped them off at school and phoned every Christian believer whose number was stored in my phone and asked for their prayers. I phoned my boss and explained the situation and she offered her full support and suggested I take the day off. “No,” I said. “I’ll be alright. I trust in God”. I spent several moments praying in the spirit and I called a believing friend with whom we prayed with our understanding. I called my brother, also a believer, and prayed with him. We hung-up, reassuring each other that God would deliver our beloved sister.
    Veronica worked for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter on the 90th floor of the second tower that was hit. When the first plane crashed into the first tower, her supervisor was at her cubicle. They did not know what happened but knew instinctively that it had to be bad. They urged their entire department to leave at once. JUST GO!!!!!! Then, they did exactly what one is told that they should not do in an emergency: they took the elevator.
    They rapidly dropped to the 60th floor when building maintenance stopped the elevator, and instructed them that it was an emergency. Evacuate the elevator and take the stairs. Down they ran. As Veronica and her colleagues reached the lobby, the second plane hit their tower.
    Pandemonium. Dust clouds. Debris. Panic. Screaming. Crying. Unprecedented emotional intensity. Emergency first-responders rushing in headlong.
    Before I continue the narrative, I wish to pray tribute to my beloved sister Veronica. The three of us, my brother Gregory, Veronica and I, grew up in a mostly loving household. Dad was a very strict disciplinarian who believed in, and exercised corporal punishment. Gregory and I were, as boys, prone to mischief. Not so with Veronica. She was a saint. She was kind and considerate. Unfailingly polite. I recall the time that she emerged from the confessional at our local Catholic church in tears. [P] “What’s the matter?” [V] “I gave my confession, but Father said that there must be more – he didn’t believe me.”. [P] “WTF?”. But she was as pure and innocent as the first winter’s snow.
    Veronica was a year ahead of me in high school. She was a straight-A student with the conduct-side of her Report Cards without blemish. It was a tough act to follow, especially on the conduct side. I endured in her considerable shadow and in the back of my mind, I even resented that she set such a lofty precedent by which I would be compared for four years. Despite this, she was always so great, offering to help me with my schoolwork and warning me about some of the teachers’ tendencies and anecdotal stories of how they dealt with mischievous students.
    Life went on and we became adults. After our sainted mother had passed in 1989, Veronica grew into the family Rock. The one who always sent generous gifts on birthdays and at Christmas. Who sent cards for every occasion. Who instinctively called whenever I was down (as well as for my brother and my father). She kept us apprised of all of the events of our extended family (“Joey Cannelloni, he’s Uncle John’s son-in-law from his second marriage – you met him at the family barbecue in Greece Park – just got a full ride at Hofstra, for Rugby”).
    Back to the afternoon of September 11, 2001. 2:30pm. I am in the parking lot of Meeks’ Lumber in Grass Valley, California. I had just “mailed in” a customer visit and I resented myself for not giving my best (I usually prepare for each visit with a plan and an expected result that I work towards). My phone rings and Daddy’s number is in the caller ID. [P] “Dad?” [D] “She’s safe.” He trailed off blubbering tears of joy and hung up on me, no doubt not wanting me to witness his outburst of emotion. It was a miracle!
    That was not the only miracle that afternoon. Pan your mental camera back to the pandemonium on the streets of New York City. Sirens. Emergency vehicles and first responders rushing to and fro, No phones. No cellular service. No transit. No emergency plans.
    Veronica emerged from the crumbling tower’s lobby not knowing where to go, what to do or what had just happened. The still, small voice inside her (I aver that this is the voice of God) told her to walk north and to keep going. After several countless blocks, walking with her head down, she bumped into a man. The man happened to be our brother-in-law, Scott. He had a car. He had a cell phone, and when they drove north and escaped Manhattan via Connecticut, Veronica was able to get a signal on Scott’s phone so that she could notify our Daddy that she was safe.
    You may call this coincidence or luck. I attribute it to the power of prayer and God’s divine answer.
    That’s not all.
    In the summer of 1994, my Daddy came out to California to visit my family and me. I was married at the time and my precious Sarah was a newborn. Daddy was enthralled with his grandson, a bright and energetic boy. He took him to Nature sites and the zoo and we visited a theme park, the three of us, together. Three generations.
    During the drive home, Dad lamented about my sister. He said that she was in a funk and no one could figure out why. He conjectured that it might be because she was nearing 40 years of age and was still single. He reminded me that she never had a serious relationship with a man and that all of her friends were married and with children and he figured that this was the cause of her “funk”. I listened, but thought to myself that Veronica is the most selfless person on the planet. I doubted his diagnosis.
    After we arrived back home, as my then-wife and I prepared supper, the phone rang. It was my brother, Gregory.
    Veronica had been diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor. The tumor was said to be “grade four” and emergency surgery was scheduled for tomorrow morning. Daddy fell apart. Mind you, he is a war veteran, a rock-ribbed and fearless man.
    I called the airline and found him a flight back east. United Airlines was kind enough to offer a significant discount. I drove him to the airport and hugged him goodbye and reminding him to pray and to trust God.
    After returning home, I contacted my staff at work (I managed a business at the time) and informed them of a personal emergency. With a promise of financial support from my in-laws, I arranged my own flight and rental car. Because all of this was arranged in the evening and that there is a three-hour time differential between California and the east coast, I did not notify my family of my intentions. I just went there.
    I arrived at Newark International, rented a car, obtained directions to the hospital and headed straight there. I arrived at Veronica’s room, I was surprised that my Daddy wasn’t there, nor anyone else, but they had just wheeled her gurney in from post-op. I sat in a chair and read from my Bible. I read from the Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians, chapter 3, verse 16 and following:
    “That He would grant unto you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man. [17] That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love [18] May be alble to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; [19] And to know (Greek: “gnosko” – to know by experience) the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled (Greek: pleroō – filled to overflowing) with all the fullness of God. [20] Now unto Him that is able to do EXCEEDING ABUNDANTLY above all that we ask or THINK, according to the power that worketh IN US. [21] Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end, Amen.”. (My emphasis).
    As soon as I had finished reading, I heard Veronica’s voice. “What are YOU doing here?”. I was speechless. Her head was heavily bandaged and I could see in her eyes that she was dopey from the anesthesia. Nevertheless, I rushed to her side and nearly crushed her with my embrace. Within moments, Daddy and Gregory and his wife were in the room (they had been in the cafeteria awaiting her release from post-up but were not notified). Soon thereafter, dozens of family and friends crowded the room and there was great rejoicing.
    My beloved sister Veronica was fortunate to receive post-operative treatment from Sloan-Kettering, the world’s foremost oncology clinic. She thrives to this day and receives annual MRI’s to assure us of this great miracle.
    This has been a very long answer to a seemingly simple question posited by our friend yoyo. May you find inspiration from my experiences and, more importantly, may you find the wherewithal to seek His Truth. His Truth shall make you free.
    May God bless you, one and all.

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  20. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Philip, I rejoyce with the survival of your sister she sounds like one of those people who are the rock of a family. My brother also had a timely exscape from the horrors of NY on that day but we didn’t find out he was safe for several days.
    My problem with the idea of redemptive prayer or miracle prayer is the randomness of it. What does it say about god that your sister was “saved” and so many others- equally religious, equally fervent, equally good were not?
    Why weren’t the prayers of the women locked in basements by monsters (familial or not)for years and years not answered? Why have I, an acknowledged atheist sinner survived bushfires and a dangerously wild adolescence and my friends innocent and much wanted baby died?
    I think it is understandable but wrong and somewhat arrogant for us to think our blessings come from a gods approval when that aslo implies our friends misfortunes must come from god’s disaproval or disinterest.
    Back to your point about the success of jewish or morman kids, in my country the cultural groups with highest level of success are the asian children and it is directly attributable to their parents attitude to education and achievement. Or are you saying that asian gods are strong over here and jewish or mormon gods are strong in your continent?
    Best wishes to you.

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  21. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    This is just my opinion Philip. While indeed I appreciate your words of wisdom, I fear they are wasted on the likes of yoyo.
    Its typically people like yoyo who actively choose to not believe in God. Its not a conclusion they met through deep thought, or research, or even with a partial understanding of the bible. Its often just made through justification and selfishness. Typically, it stems from some sort of favorite sin. “I like to do X, but the bible teaches against it. So let me see if I can discredit the bible, therefore what I do isn’t “wrong” and I shouldn’t feel ashamed about it” These exact words may not ever come out of ones mouth, but its in essence what happens.
    The objections I see alot are that “Religion has caused so much harm, therefore its bad” Ya, and so has the non belief in God and Darwinism. It was only responsible for the mass killing of the jews and the deaths of millions in the USSR and China. “A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.” So, blaming religion for causing harm is just a red herring.
    Another popular one is “God has ordered the slaughter of entire civilizations, men, women AND children. He even killed everyone but a boat full of people on the earth once! So at the very least hes a hypocrite, the worst a sociopath. So hes not a kind and loving God like you say he is. Therefore he does not exist” Which really is a poor argument. If God indeed was a “hypocrite and sociopath” that doesn’t disprove his existence. And disobeying him and denying his existence would probably only earn his ire, and not his clemency.
    God is just like one of us. Kind and loving to those who obey, and angry at those who consistently know better, and don’t. And because he has ordered such things that one could consider to be “bad” on the surface. God has always had justification in dealing out punishments. He makes rules, people break them. Punishment is justified. Just like if I stole a candy bar from a store. I broke a rule, punishment is justified. And just like a judge in a court room, its up to him (within certain confines) what the punishment should be. But often through his infinite mercy and grace, he gives wretches us like us many more chances than we truly deserve. Sometimes, he doesn’t. And if he feels that you deserve your just punishment before “your time” he’ll deliver you to it. And the innocent that were caught in the wake of his wrath earn his grace and their eternal reward. Which no better consolation could be given.
    There are many more, but I shall leave it at this. I concur with the truth you speak. “to seek His Truth. His truth shall make you free” Just the 10 commandments alone is one of the best guides to life. God nips problems in the bud. Perfect example is “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery” That one rule, if strictly followed, prevents…STDS,rape,incest, teen pregnancy, unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock, and possibly a few more that I cant think of right now. All of those social problems, gone. With 5 simple words. Leave such things up to man and what do we get? Places like Sanfranpsyco. We have education and awareness up the yin yang in places like that, but do they solve the problem? Nope. Not even close. It even produces people like “Bugcatchers” Its sickening, google it.
    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”
    Indeed
    May God bless you if you continue to try to reach yoyo.

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  22. Janice Avatar
    Janice

    Viability. I’ve never understood how this is a defense for abortion. So what is the rule for determining “viability”? If a fetus or infant can survive more than one hour? One day? One week? One month? The fact is that unborn babies have a better chance of making it into this world IF LEFT ALONE (assuming normal healthy practices by the mom) than a newborn has of surviving IF LEFT ALONE. So which one is more viable? Which one requires more care, time and attention? We all KNOW the answer to that.
    This is a precious human LIFE we’re talking about and the vast majority of life will go on to become a living, breathing, functioning human if they are not heartlessly slaughtered while still in the womb. Letting nature take its course is the right thing to do and killing an unborn innocent is completely unnatural and quite frankly, barbaric.
    It is a gross distortion to say pro-lifers care not for the life of your friend or her baby just because we place defending the life of the helpless above those who can fight for themselves. In reality, the main difference between the pro-life and pro-choice point of view is optimism. We see the miracle, the possibilities, and the potential and you see only the problems. You have based your life philosophy around the negative. You would be willing to end the precious miracle of life because allowing that baby to live might be too HARD for somebody. I have no respect for this philosophy whatsoever.
    Janice

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  23. Shaun Avatar
    Shaun

    Philip,
    Thank you for sharing such a warm and uplifting story. In my life I often take a cynical and judgmental view of people and institutions and although I believe many of these views are justifiable I sometimes forget that our Creator has such wonderful plans for all of our lives. In the midst of the worst tragedies God’s loving embrace is always there. You are a blessed man Philip, the light of our Father shines through you even thousands of miles away over an internet forum. Thank you again for sharing.
    Shaun

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  24. Shaun Avatar
    Shaun

    Furthermore, If viability is a concern, what of the mentally retarded, the physically disabled, and like Janice said the infants and toddlers and all other people who cant survive without constant care and attention. Viability is a failed defence of abortion. I would agree with Robert and Yoyo that more often than not unplanned children may not have the best resources available to them and face hardships but to consider slaughtering your child due to this is appalling. There are always choices for people.
    Shaun

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  25. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    I am sure yoyo, there is not one injustice you could not justify in your circles. In typical leftist fashion, you throw out a carefully selected sob story to get an emotional response…don’t bother with that here sis, I’ve been watching the dems do that crap for 25 years. If you want to match cut and paste stories lets post some from attempted abortion surviors.
    Murder is not an acceptable form of birth control. It is very sad that we are having this argument. Blood lust is not an understatement.

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  26. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Dear Dan,
    Thank you for your compliments and your kind words toward me. I can tell by your posts that you endeavor to be a virtuous man; a man that is morally centered and I applaud you for this.
    I hope that you will find it in your heart to accept the following reproof:
    With regard to yoyo and others that share her views, you and I may be irritated, insulted and outraged at some of these views but I wish to admonish you that Our Heavenly Father loves them just as much as He does you and I. He gave his only begotten son just as much for them as He did you and I. We need to view both our friends and our adversaries using the beacon of God’s infinite grace and mercy.
    While it is true that “the sheep hear his voice… and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice” (John 10:3-4). It is also true that “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my (God’s) mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it” (Isaiah 55.11). In other words, if my outreach to yoyo specifically is unsuccessful, there is always a benefit when the word of God is proclaimed. Perhaps someone else, some other observer that might not be willing to post his or her thoughts might be moved and inspired by my proclaiming His Truth.
    I also wish to address another portion of your reply to me, which is a common misunderstanding throughout Christendom and Judaism and is a rallying cry for God-rejecters:
    “God is just like one of us. Kind and loving to those who obey, and angry at those who consistently know better, and don’t. And because he has ordered such things that one could consider to be “bad” on the surface.”
    God is NOT like one of us, Dan. “God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24) Too many of us make the mistake of thinking that God thinks the same way that we do. No sir. God is life, God is light and God is love. God’s grace (undeserved and unmerited divine favor) and mercy (the withholding of merited judgment) is limitless. He wants for us to be more like Him, but He knows that we cannot fully achieve this goal in our earthly lifetimes. That is why His plan of salvation is so brilliant.
    You also make the error that is so sadly and unfortunately common in the Christian and Jewish community that God caused the destruction of, say, the flood of Noah, for example, and other calamities described in The Bible. This is not so.
    In my Biblical research training and instruction, one of the fundamental truths necessary to understanding Scripture is to understand difficult verses in light of clear verses and that there can be no contradictions in God’s Word. Apparent contradictions are due to either errors in our understanding or errors in translation. Please read this paragraph again then read the following verse:
    “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5).
    This is a very clear verse, is it not? Is there a soul on earth that cannot comprehend the words? So then how does one explain the apparent contradictions throughout the Old Testament where “the wrath of God” caused this calamity and that? Please permit me to explain (I have three points):
    1. There is a Figure of Speech frequently employed in the Bible that is called “Anthropopatheia” (it means “ways of the sons of men”). This figure in Latin is known as “Condescencio” (or condescension). Figures of Speech are utilized in the Bible with mathematic exactness and scientific precision to bring emphasis to that which is written. In our vernacular, we use figures of speech haphazardly and unwittingly but in God’s Word, their usage is deliberate and ever important. When encountering verses wherein you might you might observe the phrase “the wrath of God” or “God smote the Philistines” this figure takes places so that we understand the consequence of disobedience to His will in human terms.
    2. The Old Testament prophets were mindful of the First Commandment, whereby they were commanded to “have no other gods before me”. Taking into account the primitive and often guttural early languages and the reality that such men geared there minds away from attributing supernatural acts to false gods, their tendency would be to attribute any unexplained act as an “act of God”. To this day, we attribute wildfires, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. as such, which is abject contradiction to the simple expression that “God is light, and in him is NO darkness AT ALL”.
    3. The devil. Satan. Satan is his name. Devil is his job description. Literally translated, the word “devil” means “the accuser” and oh, what a success he has been over the millennia. Even to this day, good, God-fearing and reverential ministers at a eulogy or funeral service will say something such as “God called our brother home”. This is a LIE! Death is not light, is it? No, it is awful. It is Satan that is the cause of all pain, suffering, tragedy, and calamity. You see, Satan is referred to in the Old Testament only about five or six times, with most of the references occurring in the Book of Job. Satan was not fully exposed until the earthly ministry of our Lord, Jesus the Nazarene.
    My friends: Go outside tomorrow morning and look around you. Behold the loving hand of The Most High. Observe the sunrise. Witness the majestic beauty of autumn in the USA. Look at your own hand. Examine your own eyes and marvel at the exquisite and elegant design. Permit me to share one of my favorite verses from Holy Scripture: Matthew 6:29-30: “And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all of his glory was not arrayed like one of these”.
    Via con Dios.

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  27. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Dearest yoyo,
    It is so much more joyful to dialog with you when you demonstrate humility as you have in recent posts. Despite our philosophical differences, I am quite fond of you. I will attempt to address your questions in kid, and in order.
    “What does it say about god that your sister was “saved” and so many others- equally religious, equally fervent, equally good were not?”.
    Please revert to my previous post and my remarks regarding prayer. Yoyo, God is not a respecter of persons. As much as I love God, as much as I proclaim His Word and as much as I endeavor to know Him, he loves you, as well as the others that you mention every bit as much as He does me (and vice versa).
    Allow me illustrate: The love and generosity of God is a fountain (see Jeremiah 2:15). This fountain is limitless in its supply and it is always running. Its resources are available to anyone and everyone who wishes to tap into it or drink from it. However, in order to drink from it, one has to know where to find it. Go makes this path to Him known through His Holy Word.
    With respect to your point, many people and families that were less fortunate than my sister and mine probably considered themselves devout and God-fearing and most sincere. However, sincerity is no guarantee for Truth. Truth requires diligent search, for we live in a world of lies, deceit and treachery. Any honest history book will demonstrate this as its recurring theme.
    “Why weren’t the prayers of the women locked in basements by monsters (familial or not)for years and years not answered? Why have I, an acknowledged atheist sinner survived bushfires and a dangerously wild adolescence and my friends innocent and much wanted baby died?”
    Excellent questions. They have puzzled humanity for thousands of years. Here is your plain and simple answer: “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy… “ (John 10:10b).
    This is the “mission statement” of Satan, the devil. In this verse, a Figure of Speech takes place that is known as “Polysyndeton” (many “ands”). The recurrence of the “ands” requires emphasis toward the items between the “ands”. This verse is structured to denote that Satan has no other purpose but to “STEAL and to KILL and to DESTROY”. While unwittingly doing Satan’s bidding, if you will, he would tend to assign a lower priority to directing his evil toward you. However, I warn, if you get too close to the fire, you will be consumed by it. If you continue to stick your head in a snake-pit, eventually you will get bit.
    “I think it is understandable but wrong and somewhat arrogant for us to think our blessings come from a gods approval when that aslo implies our friends misfortunes must come from god’s disaproval or disinterest.”
    I can completely understand this humanistic assessment of the spiritual and supernatural. Might I please direct you to the reply I made to Dan earlier this evening and upward in the blogstream.
    “Or are you saying that asian gods are strong over here and jewish or mormon gods are strong in your continent?”
    Cute and clever. I still wish that we could go out on a date together (excepting the possibility that you are married, To my knowledge, you have not stated that this is positively so on these pages… please forgive me if I am wrong). Strictly plutonic (I am strictly committed to one woman). A nice dinner (how about Japanese?) maybe a dance or two (although I warn you: the only time that I dance effectively is when the laxative is working) and a cocktail or two afterward, outside of course, where we can smoke. I say this because, on this blogstream, we joust in printed words. We do not have the benefit of voice inflection, of facial expression, nor body language. I believe that even if we mutually agree to disagree that we could be great and lifelong friends.
    To answer your question, Asians in the US thrive educationally as well, but they tend to be Christian here. Regardless, the Truths of God work just as effectively for both saint and sinner. They are immutable. I have addressed this in previous replies to both you and Dan.
    Best wishes to you, as well. Shalom alechem, b’ai.

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  28. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant when I said he was like us. He is indeed perfect and there is no darkness within him. But God does get angry. Numbers 22:22, Deut.7:4 Getting angry righteously is not a sin. For if it were, then Jesus would not have been the sinless sacrifice. John 2:13-16.
    Indignation is not a sin. So for God to experience it doesn’t contradict his nature in the least.
    But I am perplexed with what you say. While death (physical) is a sad thing…death is not darkness. For if it was, wouldn’t it be wrong for God to subject ANY of us to it? Death is nothing more than the end of our test. Which is why we are here, are we not? Death is also temporary. All of us must “die” to be raised incorruptible. And the only ones that wont experience the temporary pain of death is when the last trumpet sounds. 1 Corinthians 15:51. Now, don’t be mistaken, I have no desire to die or have anyone else die before their time simply because death is temporary and through Christ death will be conquered. Theres a country song that has this lyric
    “Everybody wanna go to heaven.
    It beats the other place there ain`t no doubt
    Everybody wanna go to heaven
    But nobody wanna go now”
    Which fits my sentiments exactly.
    But of course death(physical) is indeed darkness if it is followed by a spiritual death.

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  29. R.L. Avatar
    R.L.

    Modern abortion procedures are safe, only moderately invasive, alternatives to unwanted or dangerous pregnancies. Thousands of such procedures have been preformed for women, who have found themselves facing situations which by any reasonable standard would be the only practical choice available to them at the time. I have not heard one single argument that would justify not making this option available to any woman who believes that it would be a benefit.
    I can understand that there are strong religious objections to abortion. Certainly that is an individual’s personal right. But, to impose one’s personal religious agenda on the medical treatment of another is wrong in every sense. It violates the concept of individual liberty that we as Americans are suppose to stand for. And, it illustrates the notion that one person’s rights stop at another’s nose.
    The women who seek abortions are not vile, immoral, self centered, creatures. Abortion is not murder. We are a country of laws and the law, not theology, defines murder; and that is simply the end of it.

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  30. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    RL said, “Modern abortion procedures are safe…”
    Not if you are an unborn child.
    RL said, “The women who seek abortions are not vile, immoral, self centered, creatures.”
    Perhaps not, but the people who enrich themselves as abortion doctors are, those who use the abortion issue to gain political power are.
    Abortion is not only murder of a child, but it is a decimation of societal morality and devastating to the women who have them. These women are convinced by the scum of the earth that this form of infanticide is an acceptable form of birth control…once the deed is done many women can’t even be in a room with a newborn without erupting into tears. The child is not the only victim.

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  31. Shaun Avatar
    Shaun

    “We are a country of laws ”
    I am no lawyer but do tell how are Laws obtained? Laws are an expression of values. In an absolute sense, which value is higher:
    A. The value of complete civil liberty? or
    B. The value of human life?
    If it is A, than I should be able to murder anyone because the Law places my civil liberty above the value of human life. After all, you cant restrain me with your silly little religious objections about human life can you? You would be violating my civil liberties. Your idea ignores the fact that pregnancies are preventable. In the case of medical emergencies, I don’t think anyone here objects to abortion if both the woman and child are certian to die. Such cases do exist but they are extremely rare. I would speculate that 99.9% of the time excuses to terminate the child are just excuses.

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  32. R.L. Avatar
    R.L.

    Shaun:
    I don’t think I have to “tell.” I think you are well aware that law in a democracy, or more specifically in a representative democracy, is the expression of the legislature and an extension of the will and values of the people.
    Abortion is legal. And as such, it is a reflection of that will and those values.
    You have aright to adhere to the tenets of your religion. Does that make you right? No, it does not! Not any more than the burnt offering of child sacrifice would be right if that was your religious practice. This endless abortion debate is the only one in which rational, conservative thinkers are lead by their emotions and act on feelings rather than reason.
    To reply, in a general sense, to your question of which is the higher value, life or liberty; with a clear distinction between liberty and lawnessless? I think that has been spoken to on March 23, 1775, when it was said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”

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  33. R.L. Avatar
    R.L.

    Shaun:
    I don’t think I have to “tell.” I think you are well aware that law in a democracy, or more specifically in a representative democracy, is the expression of the legislature and an extension of the will and values of the people.
    Abortion is legal. And as such, it is a reflection of that will and those values.
    You have aright to adhere to the tenets of your religion. Does that make you right? No, it does not! Not any more than the burnt offering of child sacrifice would be right if that was your religious practice. This endless abortion debate is the only one in which rational, conservative thinkers are lead by their emotions and act on feelings rather than reason.
    To reply, in a general sense, to your question of which is the higher value, life or liberty? I think that has been spoken to on March 23, 1775, when it was said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”

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  34. R.L. Avatar
    R.L.

    …”once the deed is done many women can’t even be in a room with a newborn without erupting into tears…”
    Sir:
    Where do you come upon the data that would support the position that many women who have had an abortion can not be in the same room with an infant without breaking into tears? What factual evidence can you offer to confirm that conclusion?

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  35. R.L. Avatar
    R.L.

    Sorry, please disregard the second posting on the same topic.

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  36. Janice Avatar
    Janice

    Just because we don’t swallow hook, line, and sinker the METHOD by which our government wants to help doesn’t mean we have no sympathy for those in need. What Obama and his followers want to do is unconstitutional and WAY overreaches their authority. Why do you immediately assume the worst…that we MUST be hypocrites with no heart? Why do you also assume that there couldn’t possibly any other options than to let the government start a dangerously invasive seizure of yet another segment of our economy? This is NOT the way.
    “Nonsense about abortion?” Should I assume by these words of yours that you think adoption is a failed method of trying to help children? Of course not! I am going to assume that you think adoption is a good thing but that there aren’t enough people willing to do it. To say you think adoption is nonsense would be about as ridiculous as you assuming conservatives don’t want to help anybody because we don’t like this health care bill.
    Your claim of hypocrisy against conservatives is a ridiculous exaggeration as a result of your emotional investment in the idea of health care and not common sense based on all sides of the picture. (Either that or you just get a kick out of name calling and insulting people you don’t even know) Although I disagree with most of what Yoyo says, she has made a noticeable effort to be civil.
    Why are you willing to hand over control of a major portion of your life and freedoms (and mine) to our government? Common sense says that there are ways to help that do NOT require the drastic measures that have been proposed. I should also mention that the need for such measures has been grossly exaggerated with the usual trump card–anecdotes of the worst examples of need as if these are the norm.

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  37. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    In support of Walt and in argument with R.L. one can read the book “Unprotected: A Campus Psychiatrist Reveals How Political Correctness in Her Profession Endangers Every Student” by Anonymous, M.D.
    The author cites countless articles and data showing the devastating impacts of abortion on unwitting young people who swallowed the abortion lie hook, line and sinker.
    Among the findings are alarming rates of suicides and attempted suicides, severe depression, a phenomenon known as “anniversary depression” and severe depression even in the ‘fathers’ of aborted children.
    Missing from this discussion is the origins of abortion and its motive: eugenics. Planned Parenthood was founded with a view of purging Negro genes from the gene pool. Seeing that more than 70% of abortions are performed on African-American women, I would say that they have succeeded in their nefarious goal.
    The other issue that has not been mentioned which fuels support for infanticde and that is the selling of fetal organs on the black market. This is a mutli-billion dollar industry perpetrated by ghouls and monsters.
    R.L. you are dead-wrong on this (pardon the word choice) and you conveniently overlooked my previous message referring to true “choice”, i.e. Abstinence, contraception, adoption and acceptance. Even without metaphysical or religious implications, the willful destruction of human life is MURDER, regardless of what the law says. There is a higher power than law.

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  38. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Welcome to the discussion, Janice. I applaud your stand, your good sense and your ability to express it.
    It would seem that Robert has returned from re-hab but has unfortunately lapsed.

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  39. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    I’ve got the answer! I’ve got the solution that will, once and forever end the circular abortion debate that sadly, has been going around-and-around in this country for decades.
    Look…the anti-aborting camp has fundamentally this position:
    Abortion is bad, because God…Speaking through the voice of religious teaching, (Because no one; at least no one that I know of, has heard God speak. And we don’t even know that, if he can speak, can he speak English well enough to get his point across) …Abortion is bad because God says so.
    The pro-aborting position is essentially:
    Abortion is good, well…because I want one.
    Okay, now we’ve got the conflict defined. We can come up with a solution. And this being America, the only lasting and unassailable solution to any problem, has to be religious in nature. So, we are going to have to find a spiritual solution. And I’ve got it….
    The Church of the Most Sacred and Holy Blood of the Aborted Lamb! The C.M.S.H.B.A.L., in which abortion not only is accepted, but it is encouraged. And in some cases, at least for the church hierarchy…Mandatory.
    You say you want an abortion there sweetheart? Well first, you’ve got to be baptized into to the Church of the Most Sacred and Holy…well you know the rest. And then, you can have all the abortions you want and no one will ever try to block your way into the clinic or super-glue-in-the-door-locks keep you out or even shoot your good, university trained, Board Certified doctor.
    Your abortion will be sacramental…An engagement of your fundamental, Constitutionally protected rights to do just about any damn thing you please on purely religious grounds. Now, you pro-aborters have a religious argument. You’re good….On even ground with the God-is-Awesome, Biblically inspired and supported anti-aborters. You can even ask you doctor for an abortion in Topeka, Kansas or Colorado Springs, Colorado for that matter…And get one, all the while preserving our long tradition of religious freedom. There you go honey.
    Debate over.

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  40. John Avatar
    John

    Jon? This has got to be Ray the Hick again. Hey Ray, you’re not fooling anyone. No one could miss your ‘style.’ Be a man and post under your real name.

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  41. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    John, I think that you are Ray Hicks; just posting here to promote yourself. Come on admit it. Everybody knows it. I don’t care. This is America where you can be anything you want. You’d agree with that…right? If you want to be Ray Hicks, go ahead…Be all you can be.

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  42. R.L. Avatar
    R.L.

    Mr. France:
    You state that: “the willful destruction of human life is MURDER.” The willful destruction of human life is not, in and of itself, murder.
    Murder is simply the unlawful taking of a human life. A police officer does not murder an armed bank robber. A member of the Armed Forces does not murder an enemy. A doctor aborting a fetus does not murder. There is only the law. Words have meaning or they don’t.
    The cold blooded assassination, inside a church, of a physician who performs abortions is in fact…Murder.
    There is no such thing as a “higher law.” There is only the law. And it is enough.

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  43. Shaun Avatar
    Shaun

    R.L I think you are wrong in so many ways with this response. I will agree that it seems the will of most Americans(not by much though) are for Abortion and for this reason we have changed the definition of human life so that the law doesn’t protect are unborn. The basic premise here is human life.
    Do you believe in protecting innocent life? Do you believe that life begins at conception? If not conception then when EXACTLY does human life become human life?
    These are not emotionally charged arguments. It is a belief in a fundamental Law that is written in all our hearts…yours as well.
    Finally, your using Patrick Henry is a bit lame. Surely I don’t have to point out the difference between his willingness to give his life and the restraints of civil liberties.(Just because Im free I cant go around murdering people) Good Luck to you!
    Shaun

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  44. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    I am not sure they have done that exact study but now that the idea is out there I am sure they will send some tax money that way.
    My evidence is personal witness.

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  45. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    I think you are right about this one..must be but he is making less sense these days.

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  46. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Walth I have a feeling I picked up this blood lust comment on another thread by you? leaving aside Dan whose never repsonded to a comment honestly, he just avoids the topic and declaims “”sin sin”” like a mouldy crow trying to quick step around moral issues, his misogyny and overt cruelty, still haven’t heard his response about what he’s going to do to the women who cannot bear carrying an unwanted child. Paralysis? prison? what in reality does this male want?
    I have carried two much loved girls to term and lost 2 children, one early one late. In my normal and wanted pregancies i lost 1/3 of my body weight, had multiple hospitalisations, gave up a once in a lifetime work opprtunity to keynote address a conference in venice, had no paid maternity leave and lost my first husband to illness.
    These were wanted children, and I am an educated woman with resources and friendsthe sacrifice was more than acceptable for me, what male on this thread or in the WHOLE “prolife”” movement is going to give up their career, their body, their health and healthcare, their income and employability, perhaps even their life for an unwanted child? Frankly I have problems imagining any of you doing it for a wanted child. repeat after me WOMEN ARE NOT VESSELS! We are real human beings with worth too.

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  47. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    “There is no such thing as a “higher law.”
    R.L., you have made many valid points in your previous postings, but by stating this: “There is no such thing as a “higher law.” You have lost all credibility.
    You lose. Argument over.
    Yoyo has made some other points that are worthy of vigorous argument. I am tired and I do not have the energy to deconstruct them again tonight. I am hopeful that Janice (or Walt, or Shaun or Dan) will address her shortcomings with their usual aplomb.
    How delightful that this subject has inspired so much commentary. A round of applause from all of us is due to Selwyn Duke.

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  48. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Flawed logic. Its legalized murder. And you are using only the legal definition, when other, and contemporary definitions are what we are using here. The contemporary definition of murder is killing someone without valid justification.
    Take a trip with me to fantasy land. Lets pretend it wasn’t against the law to rape people. Would that make it ok for people to do it and it not be rape? Nope.
    A law, or lack thereof does not necessarily equal correct. It used to be legal to own slaves. Did that make it any less wrong? Nope. At one time, it was legal for people to kill mormons. Was that ok because it was legal? Nope.
    So, you saying its not murder because its legal is flawed logic.

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  49. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    No, R.L. Abortion is legal because the supreme court said so. And the supreme court is not subject to the peoples will. Only their wills. Which, if you think they check their ideologies and personal agendas at the door, you are truly a fool.
    Roe V Wade should never have gone to the supreme court. It should have stayed in the state that it was filed it. Such decisions should in fact be be the will of the people, and the states. If a state wants to make abortions legal, it should be able to. If it wants to make them illegal, it should be able to. But since it went to the supreme court it became the law of the land.

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  50. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Yoyo,
    I had previously conceded, I think with my original post on this topic, that in sincere cases such as threat to the life of the mother or rape, termination of the pregnancy may be, with great sadness, executed. This only accounts for around 3% of the abortions perfomed and yet it is the “high ground” for the pro abortion pundints. Lets just take that off the table and discuss the other 97%.

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