Lightning Storm By Selwyn Duke

Of all the responses to the
devastation in Haiti, the most copy-worthy is televangelist Pat Robertson’s
claim that the earthquake was divine retribution.  In making his case, he told a story about how
Haitian leaders long ago made a pact with Satan, promising to serve him if he
would help vanquish their French oppressors. 
The Devil delivered, said Robertson, but the consequence is that the
nation has ever since been cursed, with one disaster befalling it after
another.  It was reminiscent of when the
late Jerry Falwell said — and Robertson agreed — that those who have authored
America’s descent into sin were partially responsible for 9/11.


Not surprisingly, the response
today is much as it was back then. 
Robertson has been roundly criticized in media, by the left, right and
center.  Yet there’s something more troubling
than his remarks.

Just for the record, I don’t
share Robertson’s theology.  While I do
believe there can be such a thing as the wrath of God, I also know that God has
both ordained will and permissive will. 
The former, of course, is when God intervenes and makes something
happen; miracles, in the typical sense, fall into this category.  And many have believed in divine intercession.  For instance, Ben Franklin once said, “the
longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth, that God governs
in the Affairs of Men.” 

In contrast, permissive will is
when God allows other forces — such man’s free will — in the Universe free rein.  I believe most events fall into this
category, although I’m certainly not inclined to argue about what percentage of
all happenings they might be.  I’m also
not inclined to argue about the category into which the Haitian earthquake
falls.  I’ll simply note that disasters,
like death, touch the Hades-bound and holy alike.  I’ll also point out that Robertson’s story
about the Haitian rebels’ pact with Beelzebub seems more urban legend than
cause of urban devastation.  Yet more
ridiculous than the televangelist’s comments is something inherent in the
criticism of him. 

Many lambasting Robertson are
Christians who believe in miracles and sometimes pray for God’s
intercession.  Yet, while they believe He
may reward and rescue us, they certainly don’t seem to believe that He would
apply the rod.  Now, many would say this
is because He is loving God, not a vengeful one; of course, others might say a
loving father knows that love involves discipline.  But I’d like to focus on a different matter.

Why do people take such umbrage
at Robertson’s remarks?  Now, I don’t ask
why they disagree; to reiterate, I part ways with him theologically
myself.  Yet I’m not offended.  I don’t act as if his
commentary is as bad as a phony reverend screaming “God d*** America!” from the
pulpit — which, I should emphasize, isn’t just saying that God has punished
America.  It is asking Him to damn America.  And let us be clear: Damnation in Christian
thought is something infinitely worse than sending a natural or manmade
disaster our way.  It is wishing on your target
the worst thing possible: eternal separation from God.  We should also note the context of that
esteemed man of the cloth’s remarks.  He
was saying that 9/11 was our just deserts, that, as he put it, “America’s
chickens have come home to roost.”  Only,
unlike the pastoral admonishment of Robertson and Falwell, he spewed the words
with venom.  And I don’t remember the
chickens in the media condemning him as they did those two men.  But I digress.

The larger point is that there
is nothing un-Christian about a belief in God’s wrath.  The Bible is replete with examples of it,
such as Noah’s Ark and the great flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah.  And when the Crusades (which, mind you, were
a response to Moslem aggression) weren’t successful, medieval Christians viewed
it as punishment for their sins.  They
then aimed to purify themselves, and piety movements arose all across Europe.

Yet, while many view this
thinking as backward and superstitious, it isn’t always because they scoff at
the idea of the supernatural; as I said, millions believe in miracles.  Rather, it is because so many believe they
have nothing to purify.

Truth be known, what really
angers people is the implication that we could be deserving of such punishment. 
It’s just a very unfashionable idea in our I’m-OK, you’re-OK,
self-esteem-and-candy culture.  Yet the
belief reflected by this anger is far more contrary to authentic Christianity
than anything Robertson has said.

Central to Christianity is the
idea that we’re deserving of the worst punishment — of damnation itself.  As the Bible says, “All have sinned and have
fallen short of the glory of God.”  Yet
we won’t necessarily get what we deserve because God is merciful.  But this doesn’t mean He would not, under any
circumstances, administer lesser punishment. 
I suppose you could say it’s much like the difference between a pagan
Roman father and a good Christian one.  As
the paterfamilias, the former
had the authority to even kill his children if it suited him.  Thankfully, no average father today would
contemplate
such a thing, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t put hand to hindquarters on
occasion.

Also, before one judges a
Christian harshly for speaking of God’s wrath, it’s important to understand the
idea within the context of Christianity. 
As the one who gave us life, God has the right to take it away.

But He doesn’t.

Upon leaving this fold, we pass
on to eternal life.  And if God takes
people from this world but then invites them into His kingdom, is it not a
blessing?  Now, I well understand that
this sounds ridiculous to secular ears that find the very concept of an
afterlife silly.  But we’ve all heard of
the importance of putting yourself in another’s shoes, of understanding his “perspective.”  There’s nothing sillier than judging someone’s
intentions — what’s going on in his mind — without trying to grasp the world
view shaping that mind.

Most interesting, though, is
the modern man’s belief in his own sanctity. 
Some would say this problem is a result of a lack of introspection, but,
in a way, it’s also a result of nothing but introspection.  And this is largely a function of moral relativism.  I’ll explain.

The question here boils down to
what you use to judge your moral state. 
If you use Moral Truth — that is, something existing apart from man that
constitutes perfect moral law — you will always find yourself wanting as you
can never be perfect, never measure up to it. 
Sure, not everyone has the same grasp of morality; some are blind to
many of its elements; some see elements that aren’t there.  Some are blind to many of their own faults.  Nevertheless, it’s hard to believe in Truth,
in perfection, and also believe that you truly reflect it.

But if there were no Truth, there
would be no morality.  After all, if
there is no external reality on which to base right and wrong — if, as the
Greek philosopher Polybius said, “Man is the measure of all things” — it is
simply an invention of man.  This is why
relativists shy away from the term “morality” and instead prefer “values,”
which usually refers not to divine or “natural” law but to social
constructs.  But, then, what are
values?  What are we really talking
about?  What are we actually using as a
yardstick for judging “moral” state?  It
then could only be one thing, emotion — consensus or individual.  This accounts for the popularity of the
animalistic credo, “If it feels good, do it.”

But then, whose feelings should
hold sway?  A person could use those of
the wider society, and there certainly is social pressure to do so.  And given that our relativistic, feel-good culture
has dumbed down standards to rubber-stamp what is pleasurable (part of which is
sin), our collective set of values is far from perfect.  Thus, it’s easy to view yourself as “OK”
relative to it.

More significantly, though, if
values are relative and feelings carry the day, why should we defer to other
people’s feelings?  After all, I’m a
person just as you are.  Why should you
be the arbiter of my “moral” standard? 
Don’t impose your values on me, you intolerant oaf. 

The individual then uses his
own emotions as the yardstick for what his relativistic mind can only call morality.  Then, since his “morality” is just a
reflection of himself, he will conform to it perfectly.  This is the process by which one deifies
himself.  It is when he finds the only
kind of being this side of Heaven who could establish moral standards: the god
“within.”  And then don’t dare suggest
that he deserves punishment, for that is an offense against the perfect.  Is it any wonder that many so-called
Christians today no longer believe in Hell?

Of course, not everyone
descends into complete self-delusion. 
But the more relativism blinds our eyes to the yardstick that reveals
imperfection, the more we start to mistake our warts for marks of distinction.

I don’t think the Haitian
earthquake, 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina was divine punishment.  But I do know this: It is not dangerous to
believe that God would wash away wickedness with a great flood.  It is very dangerous to believe it wouldn’t
matter anyway, because we can walk on water.

                     © 2010 Selwyn Duke — All Rights Reserved

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29 responses to “What is More Troubling than Pat Robertson’s Remarks?”

  1. sammy Avatar

    What you are trying to say Duke is that these these satan worshipping, theiving, raping, murdering haitians deserved what they got. And, I have to say I agree.
    Didn’t New Orleans practice Voodoo too.

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  2. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Pat Robertson said, “…since then (the pact with the Devil) the Haitian people have been cursed with one thing after another; desperately poor.”
    Pat Robertson did not say this earthquake was a divine retribution. He did imply however, the economic state of Haiti was a result of past decisions. I am not a big Robertson fan, but the press has stuffed a lot of extra words into Robertson’s mouth, and that is not right.
    Here is my take on curses and blessings. God has given us much wisdom in which to rule our affairs, personally and as a nation. Through out the Bible many blessings and curses are described. If you do this, good things will happen, if you do that, bad things will happen. However I do not think God is up there with his Scepter sending down curses and blessings via invisible ray. The laws of God are like the laws of nature; they can’t be broken and an attempt to do so results in calamity…simple cause and effect. Our Nation was founded upon the Laws of God and we have been “blessed” because of it, yet the further we stray from those principals the more tribulation we experience. Haiti won its “freedom” based not upon the Laws of God but an agreement with the Enemy of God. Whether the Devil actually showed up to shake hands with them is irrespective; their departure from the known Laws of God and intentional separation from him brought their society a natural cause and effect reaction, or “curse” if you please.
    Now, consider this. If Haiti was a nation that was founded upon the same principal as ours, would the poverty and corruption be the same as it is today? Would the damage to the infrastructure be as great had the nation managed its wealth better over the past 100 years? Would the internal governmental response to the suffering be quicker and more compassionate if they were under a 1787 US Constitution? Blessings and Curses are cause and effect. God did not create us to destroy us, but as an object of His love. His expression of the principals to a blessed life and nation are a perfect example of that Love. As witnessed not just in Haiti but in almost every culture the result of ignoring this Loving advice is chaos and corruption.

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  3. Donald James Parker Avatar

    Another excellent post from Mr. Duke. It has been foretold by many that a shaking of the earth was commencing. In this case a literal shaking. Isn’t it amazing how Pat Robertson can mention on his show that somebody was raised from the dead or healed from an incurable disease and no one pays any attention. As soon as he says something that can be construed as controversial and offensive to people who have been victims of a disaster, his words spread across the globe. If God is going to use natural disasters to get our attention and to punish wanton sin, California and Washington DC may be likely targets.
    Donald James Parker
    Author of All the Voices of the Wind
    PS: Mr. Duke. I’m starting a Blogtalk Radio show. I’d love to have you as one of my guests sometime.

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  4. kim segar Avatar
    kim segar

    Here we have Pat Robertson siting on the throne and judging anyone he chooses..He judges a nation by the leaders choices. G-d is love but HE is a G-d of Justice as well, and says that anything we do that we know is wrong is SIN, sin is sin..and how about Pat Robertson who voted for Obama and led his flock of thousands to vote for him as well. here Obama says many times he is for abortion, same sex marriage and yet these people who call themselves christians put their name behind some one that would kill little babies in the womb, murder of the worst kind, and top that with standing with American enemies and also dead set against Israel ,,he needs to go back to Gen 13:3 and see how G-d Makes a statement, anyone who doesn’t bless Israel is cursed..and Joel 2 and 3 where anyone who tries to part the land is going to get destroyed..as it is a everlasting Covenant. To blame all the people in any nation for what the leaders do is dead wrong. We are to help the poor, feed the poor take care of the widow, bring them into our homes, preach to them in love, not hate. and the scripture that says, apostasy will come in the last days just before HE comes..maybe old Pat aught to get in his private jet and jet over to Haiti and feed the poor and take and send supplies. taking scripture out of context is pretext and leaves not the whole truth so therefore they have a lie. that is why HE told us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, to the JEW first. for Pat to stand with the PLO against Israel and thinks its ok to part the land against G-d and His chosen is one big mistake. and America..if the churches would get off their blessed assurances and fight the good fight long ago, G-d would not have been removed from America..and top that too with global warming churches sign onto for their 501, tax break..Genesis 8:22 , G-d says HE will never send a flood and that the seasons will NEVER change. We are to believe G-d not man, Acts five..we the people are to blame. and they need to get up and fight the good fight..G-d doesn’t change, no shadow of turning and is the same yesterday today and forever. We are not under the law, but should teach it as our loving instruction. and when we sin, we are guilty of all,,so what Pat says is very wrong and we need to pray for him,,and to really be a light into the nations, not bending to Islam but todefend our nation and our families..and bring G-d back..It is the only way….

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  5. Sue Blake Avatar
    Sue Blake

    You forget the so called “honor” killings that the Muslims believe in and do, even in America.
    We have a young girl today who might be turned over to her Father for this act.
    Rifqa Bary and the Ohio Courts will act on this today.
    When we chose the devils ways over God;s what else can we expect.

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  6. kim segar Avatar
    kim segar

    I meant genesis 12:3

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  7. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    Since your days of American Thinker, I have found you to be one of the few select writers and thinkers I truly honor … and there are many out there.
    As a decendant of Haitian parents, I thank God for being born in the U.S. I thank God for being American, for it is populated by people like you who enrich this great land, and are indeed that “beacon on the hill”. Your writings are a ‘must read’.
    May God continue blessing you.

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  8. Gary Avatar
    Gary

    ordained will and permissive will:
    When one believes in God and absolutes all subject matter becomes intrinsically linked to Him, especially language – which did not evolve any more than we did. We and our language devolved from a perfect state to the one we are in now. Let this sink in as it pertains to any “talking head”, especially a religious one, and what you will realize is that the degraded way we live is always a result of our feeble efforts to take hold of the absolute so it won’t be. The credibility of religious pundits is rather non-existent to begin with in this culture due to the strangle hold that political correctness has via the credibility given the vogue courts of the media – making a laughing stock of any court so preconscious as to have a displayed copy of God’s absolutes. The very last thing that anyone who strives to own their own truth will do is align with any thinking that would attribute catastrophe to God. Yet, that is the language, the wording, in this country of every court in the land when it pertains to insurance. Funny how those courts are now impotent to make rulings that can stand up to both the power given to money and the lightening speed descent into the abyss we are now in. Political correctness is the new state religion that is teaching us that there is no right and wrong and thus leads directly into us fooling ourselves into believing that we individually can be god. It is working way too well, but doesn’t really work at all for eternity.

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  9. Gary Avatar
    Gary

    sorry, my post should read: “so pretentious” , NOT preconscious. -Gary

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  10. etalbott@qroidaho.net Avatar

    Perhaps you missed Mr. Robertson’s assurance that he/his helpers would be immediately be sending supplies of all kinds into Haiti as his Operation Blessing does always, in every disaster. Their own leader did admit that the “agreement with satan” did happen. For those who do not believe satan is a real being, this is hard to swallow, but that does not make it true.

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  11. Lex Icon Avatar

    I thought that I was God, but then I ran out of toilet paper…

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  12. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    My goodness, is it even possible that you people who defend this theological thug (PR) even think about the context of what he is saying? I thought the sins of the fathers are not to be visited on the sons however a mangled version of rascist history cited by this huxter implies that your omnicient omnipotent loving god would wait 200+ years then choose to encase babies and pregnant women in tombs of concrete for a misheard piece of drivel.
    And you wonder why people become atheists LOL.
    So which natural disasters are acts of god and which are of the devil? That hideous man Fred Phelps says that all deaths in the US are due to your unwillingness to kill gay people, do you follow his theology too? J Grant Swank, calls for all sorts of catclysims to teach the unbelivers that their role is grovelling sycophant in Israels rise, do you support that? There will always be nast men profiting of other people’s misery, it demeans your faith to believe that they speak in gods voice.

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  13. John Avatar
    John

    yoyo, did you even read Duke’s article? You’re really unbelievable. A guy writes a deep piece of philosophy and you come on here talking like he’s Fred Phelps. And also shut up about Phelps. Do you know what his ‘church’ is? It’s just his FAMILY dummy! He doesn’t actually have a church. Try reading the article next time. You’re acting like a real airhead.

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  14. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    John, of course I read selwyns article, his major point seems to be that the god of love can also be a god of judgement – so? My point, which you are being deliberately obtuse about, is that each theologian has a differing idea about what brings on god’s judgement eg Phelps.
    I agree that christian theology of the most mainstream type talks about punishment, your god comes with a sword etc. However John my dear sweat lamb of god, if you really think that your god would punish babies by burying them in concrete to die of thirst, let alone the fact that MAINSTREAM theology implies that you can be happy in heaven knowing that those you love are suffering unceasing torment in hell, then I’m really sorry buit I cant see a morality worth spitting on.
    You may feel justifed, along with selwyn that it is other people who carry the burden of your god’s capriciousness, but to me pat robinson is worthy of level 3,4, 5, 6 & 7 of Dante’s hell all by his little ownsome and the people who try and support him are pushing periously close to the preachers in Rwanda. If you dont know what I mean I’m sure you can figure it out.

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  15. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God”. ~ Matthew 22: 29.
    Selwyn Duke is a brilliant writer and philosopher but he is not a Biblical scholar. This is no offense to Selwyn. I am an avid admirer of his genius and of his way with words. However, I must make certain things known and I will endeavor to make them clear.
    “Knowing this first: that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private (Greek: “idios”) interpretation, for the prophecy came not by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (Spirit)”. ~ II Peter 1:20-21).
    We mortal and carnal human beings have no right to interpret divine scripture. Read that again. None of us; not Pat Robertson, not Selwyn Duke not yoyo and not me. It follows that the next question should be, “so then how the hell does it get interpreted/understood?”.
    Answer: It interprets itself. It does, trust me; and it is a beautiful journey into elegant language concepts to discover this. There are many concepts to consider; some of which are early languages and alphabets, figures of speech, orientalisms (Easternisms or Hebraisms). None of these disciplines are difficult to grasp. There are other keys to allowing the Bible to interpret itself, but the vast majority of the Bible interprets itself right where it is written in plain or King James English (John 3:16 is a profound example).
    One of my criticisms of Selwyn’s otherwise philosophically beautiful article is the idea that God “takes people from this world”. It breaks my heart to hear my God and Creator slandered so, and by one that I so admire and esteem. I will get back to this thought.
    Before I go on, I wish to applaud posts by Walt (his reference to the laws of God/laws of nature is profound, for they are one and the same) and the post by Gary. I give both of you an A+.
    The context of Selwyn’s article is based upon statements made by Rev. Pat Robertson about the tragic earthquake in Haiti. Rev. Robertson and his ministry have done a great deal of good in mitigating human suffering in this world and they deserve our respect for the good work that they have done. However, his statement was patently and Biblically absurd. I’ll tell you why, and with authority.
    If you wish to know God, approach Him by the understanding of His three “L’s”. God is Light, God is Life and God is Love. The entire book of I John is devoted to this concept. God NEVER violates this concept.
    In a previous post, I contrasted Jesus’ mission statement: “I am come that they might have life, and have it more abundantly” with that of Satan’s: “the thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy”. This is the sole purpose of God’s enemy. (John 10:10).
    Remember that Satan was once Lucifer, the angel of light, and God’s 2nd-in-command, if you will. He understands light and the material and physical composition of nature. In his job description as “the devil” (diabolos: the accuser); it is his “business plan” to blame God for his perfidy. In this, he has succeeded in staggering proportions. ALL natural devastation, be it by tornado, hurricane, earthquake, famine, pestilence, are the works of Satan. “God is light and in Him is no darkness at all” ~ I John 1:18. No darkness means what? NO DARKNESS! Is death darkness? Are natural disasters darkness or light?
    In the Old Testament of the Bible, there are many acts act, such as Noah’s flood, that are attributed to God bringing them about. This is by way of the Figure of Speech “Anthropopathia” (ways of the sons of men) in which the pathos of man are attributed (falsely) to God. In Latin, this figure of speech is called “Condescensio”.
    You see these references and allegations go away beginning with the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and continuing into the Pauline epistles and the remainder of the New Testament. That is because Jesus, the son of God, exposed Satan during his earthly ministry. This is fascinating study, my friends. It is beautiful and elegant learning.
    To conclude, Rev. Robertson is overtly wrong in his claim about the Haitians and worse yet, about God. God does not bring calamity or devastation. In fact, as the author and origin of life, He is incapable of destructive acts. God is light, God is life and God is love. It’s that simple.
    God bless you all,
    Philip France

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  16. yoyo Avatar
    yoyo

    Philip, yours is definitly a nicer theology to my sensibilities at least. I’m sure there would be many christians who agree with you but I am equally sure there would be many who quite like the idea of a vengeful interventionist god unfortunately I dont think there is anyway of being sure that one interpretation has more merit than another when even the authors of the four gospels disagree on many facts.
    My admittedly blasphemous but not disrepectful theory is that all things being even we have a responsibility to chose the interpretation that does more good in this world. but then, I’m probably the last person to speak with authority on faith issues.

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  17. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Darling yoyo,
    You evidently missed, or sailed over, my comment and quote:
    “Knowing this first: that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private (Greek: “idios”) interpretation, for the prophecy came not by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (Spirit)”. ~ II Peter 1:20-21).
    The Greek word “idios” (from which we derive our English word “idiot”, as well as “idea” and “ideology”) mean’s “one’s own”. I went through great length in my post to indicate that the word of God is not to be left to “one’s own” interpretation. I then went on to explain some of the manifold ways in which to allow the scriptures to interpret itself. Please read my posts more carefully before you respond in knee-jerk fashion. I do not claim to corner the market of Biblical wisdom, but my studies have been intense. I think that you can plainly see that I am not a casual reader of the Book of Life. If you claim to be intellectual at all, you have an obligation to carefully consider my statements, examine them for veracity, and then criticize and/or question them accordingly. Not as compared to what you “think”, but as compared to what you know. We are all entitled to our opinions, but we are not all entitled to our own versions of facts and Truth.
    I would also like to challenge this additional statement that you posted: “I dont think there is anyway of being sure that one interpretation has more merit than another when even the authors of the four gospels disagree on many facts.”
    I remind you yet again that the scriptures are not to be of “one’s own” interpretation but I call out your statement as patently false. The author of all four of what you refer to as “gospels” is one and the same. That would be God. The writers of them (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) wrote the same story, but from different vantage points. There is not one contradiction between them. The four biographies of the earthly ministry of our Lord and Savior tell the same glorious story of God’s Word becoming flesh; of his birth and childhood; of his ministry to his Kingdom; of his wrongful accusation(s) resulting in his execution – which was the foretold shedding of innocent blood for man’s redemption; it concluded with his resurrection and his ascendance on high. “It is finished”.
    Let me help you understand (and I could go on to explain this in further and more fascinating detail, if one wishes). The vantage points of the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (I take exception to the referencing of these books as “the gospel”; but that is an entirely different conversation)) are as follows:
    The Book of Matthew depicts Jesus, our Lord as the (rightful) King of Israel.
    The Book of Mark depicts Jesus, our Lord as a servant to mankind.
    The Book of Luke depicts Jesus, our Lord as a man (note the many references to him in this book as “the son of man”). Jesus was a man. A human being that was conceived by metaphysical means. He was a perfect man who was born of Divine seed and the only man that has never sinned. He is the fulfillment of all Old Testament Prophesy regarding the mercy seat and all of the Old Testament sacrifices and approach offerings.
    The book of John depicts Jesus, our Lord as the son of the Most High God. In this book, he is God’s Word become flesh. ALL of the Old Testament laws, sacrifices and rituals are consummated in his very being.
    I could go into all of this in spectacular, fascinating and elegant detail.
    We have strayed far from Selwyn’s original article about Rev. Pat Robertson and his outrageous commentary about the Haitian crisis but I hope that all of you have benefited from my love of God and my love for His Holy Word, which I esteem more than my necessary food.
    “I delight in thy word as one that findeth great spoil.”.

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  18. Sticks n Stones Avatar
    Sticks n Stones

    Mr. Duke, I had written-off Mr. Robertson’s remarks as just another religious fanatic airing their views until I read your article. I changed my thoughts and thank you for your insightful and unbiased opinions. Another great article. Keep up the good work.
    Like you, I do not adhere to Mr. Robertson’s theology and agree this could have been a result of God’s permissive will. As you mentioned, Scripture is replete with examples of God’s wrath, as well as his mercy.
    I don’t write often although I do enjoy reading your articles. One has to pick their arguments; therefore I am prompted to write tonight as I feel Philip has misrepresented God in so very many ways that the truth needs to be told.
    Philip says:
    “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God”. ~ Matthew 22: 29″
    –Hopefully, by the time I am done, you will see it is really you that errs. I have my doubts, though, as I cannot understand how anyone can read Mr. Duke’s article and come out thinking as you do.
    Philip says:
    “Knowing this first: that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private (Greek: “idios”) interpretation, for the prophecy came not by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (Spirit)”. ~ II Peter 1:20-21).” “We mortal and carnal human beings have no right to interpret divine scripture. Read that again. None of us; not Pat Robertson, not Selwyn Duke not yoyo and not me.”
    –2nd Peter 1: 20-21 – shows that the Scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the Holy Scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. But that doesn’t mean that ordinary laymen and Scripture scholars cannot use their intellects to probe the meaning of Scripture. We can interpret and explore Scripture, just not in a way that contradicts what has been defined concerning it.
    Philip says:
    “It follows that the next question should be, “so then how the hell does it get interpreted/understood?”.Answer: It interprets itself.”
    –Where in Sacred Scripture can one find an affirmation of such a declaration? Will someone with a mental disability also be able to allow ‘scripture interprets scripture’ and come up with the same ‘interpretation/understanding’ as you or I? If not, then who has the Truth and where is the truth of your proclamation?
    Philip says:
    It does, trust me; and it is a beautiful journey into elegant language concepts to discover this. There are many concepts to consider; some of which are early languages and alphabets, figures of speech, orientalisms (Easternisms or Hebraisms). None of these disciplines are difficult to grasp. There are other keys to allowing the Bible to interpret itself, but the vast majority of the Bible interprets itself right where it is written in plain or King James English (John 3:16 is a profound example).”
    –Not sure why you felt compelled to mention KJV, but there was a Bible long before jolly ole Jimmy. In fact, the first edition of the King James Bible was composed by a committee of English scholars between 1607 and 1611; over a millennia after the Holy Spirit inspired the ancient writers of Sacred Scripture. I am of the belief that any old Bible is better than no Bible and God can get His Truths across to anyone who is sincerely seeking Him; with or without the use of the written Word.
    –You give John 3: 16 – “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” as an example of ‘scripture interpreting scripture.’ I would be interested in hearing how this scripture interprets itself and why you used it. I read this passage and many questions arise: Will you find other Scripture that speaks of God’s love for the world? Or of God’s other means to salvation for the world than merely saying ‘I believe’? Or why He had to give His only begotten Son? And what does it mean to perish? Can this one passage you chose answer all those questions? I am one who enjoys reading Sacred Scripture, but I need much more than your word that ‘scripture interprets scripture’ to believe your claim.
    –What I do believe is that it is not good practice to interpret any single verse apart from the text. Verses of the Bible must be interpreted not only within the framework of the chapter and book but also in relation to other passages of Scripture that bear upon the same subject. You see, I’m not content with a small slice of the pie (one verse), but I want the whole pie (everything God has told us on any given subject). There is only one place that fulfills my desire to learn the whole Truth.
    –Christ instituted a teaching Church (Matthew 28:19-20), endowed with his own authority (Luke 10:16; Matthew 16:18, 18:18), but we nowhere see the notion of “Scripture interprets Scripture” in the teachings of the Church, the Bible, any of the apostles or any of their successors. The reason is simple; men can say their ‘interpretation/understanding’ is due to ‘scripture interpreting scripture’ or ‘divine revelation from the Holy Spirit’ or whatever excuse to make themselves seem infallible in what is commonly known as ‘private interpretations.’ I could say, “My ‘scripture interprets scripture’ and come-up with a whole different understanding than yours.” Or, “The Holy Spirit taught me such-n-such scripture means this or that” and all could be different than yours. Evidence of this is in my first paragraph, where I disagree with your interpretation of 2nd Peter 1: 20-21.
    –This is why Scripture is not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he has left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. (1st Timothy 3: 15; Matthew 16: 18)
    Philip says:
    “One of my criticisms of Selwyn’s otherwise philosophically beautiful article is the idea that God “takes people from this world”. It breaks my heart to hear my God and Creator slandered so, and by one that I so admire and esteem. I will get back to this thought.”
    –If God did not spare his only begotten Son — “Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.” (Luke 22: 42) It was obviously God’s will that Jesus die at that time. I agree that God the Father is the Creator and sustainer of all life. Life is His to give and his to take — “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:” (Hebrews 9: 27) Who do you think made this appointment for every man, woman and child? If you claim any man, fallen angel, or any created being holds this power, then it is you who slanders Almighty God and usurps his authority.
    Philip says:
    “If you wish to know God, approach Him by the understanding of His three “L’s”. God is Light, God is Life and God is Love. The entire book of I John is devoted to this concept. God NEVER violates this concept.”
    –God may not, but man does. Seems you deny God’s wrath although, as Mr. Duke stated, Scripture is replete with examples. If God tells us He is a jealous God and to have no other gods above him, what do you think he’s going to do if you violate either of these commandments? He is going to correct you, in love. “And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaks to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied while thou art rebuked by him. For whom the Lord loves, he chastises; and he scourges every son whom he receives. Persevere under discipline. God deals with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? Now all chastisement for the present indeed seems not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.” (Hebrews 12: 5-7, 11) also see (Revelation 3: 19) And these are chastisements to those who follow Jesus!
    –As for the thirty-some references to God’s wrath in the NT alone, I will quote but one: “But if our injustice commend the justice of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust, who executes wrath? (I speak according to man.) God forbid: otherwise how shall God judge this world?” (Romans 3: 5-6) Vengeance is His, remember?
    Philip says:
    In a previous post, I contrasted Jesus’ mission statement: “I am come that they might have life, and have it more abundantly” with that of Satan’s: “the thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy”. This is the sole purpose of God’s enemy. (John 10:10).
    –I don’t deny that the devil is a bad dude, but I’m not going to blame him for everything. We are told he is able to tempt us. God is said to test us. Was the earthquake a temptation or a test, do you think? Satan has no power save for what God allows, unless you think the devil is more powerful than our omnipotent God?
    Philip says:
    “Remember that Satan was once Lucifer, the angel of light, and God’s 2nd-in-command, if you will.”
    –I could address the term “Lucifer” but there are legitimate arguments on both sides as to whether “Lucifer” signifies a state of being, such as the Day Star, or whether it is another name for the devil. It’s really miniscule compared to the other mistakes you have made and has no bearing on Mr. Duke’s article, either.
    –Satan is called an angel of light, never ‘the’ angel of light. It is important to make this distinction, since it compares the darkness of Satan to the light of the heavenly angels, of which he may appear in disguise. “No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” (2nd Corinthians 11:14)
    –Can you please provide Scripture [interpreting Scripture] for Satan being described as “God’s 2nd-in-command”?
    Philip says:
    He understands light and the material and physical composition of nature.
    –Sacred Scripture says this? It sounds more like private interpretation.
    Philip says:
    In his job description as “the devil” (diabolos: the accuser); it is his “business plan” to blame God for his perfidy. In this, he has succeeded in staggering proportions. ALL natural devastation, be it by tornado, hurricane, earthquake, famine, pestilence, are the works of Satan. “God is light and in Him is no darkness at all” ~ I John 1:18. No darkness means what? NO DARKNESS! Is death darkness? Are natural disasters darkness or light?
    –Am I to believe you believe death is darkness? What happened to your claim of ‘everlasting life’ in using John 3:16 above? This is more personal interpretation and less scriptural in context. In God there is no darkness but we are never promised there won’t be darkness for us. In fact, Psalm 21 speaks of us walking in the shadow of death. And what is death for a Christian if not the ‘everlasting life’ of John 3:16? Surely you are not judging all the dead in Haiti to eternal darkness?
    Philip says:
    In the Old Testament of the Bible, there are many acts act, such as Noah’s flood, that are attributed to God bringing them about. This is by way of the Figure of Speech “Anthropopathia” (ways of the sons of men) in which the pathos of man are attributed (falsely) to God. In Latin, this figure of speech is called “Condescensio”.
    –Are you meaning Anthroposophy — a twentieth century religious system growing out of theosophy and centering on human development? Have you discussed this new-age theory with any Jew? Have you advised them that their pathos held so much power over nature that it caused the flooding of the entire earth? It is true that the people angered God but, unless it was God who took action, the world would never have been covered in water. If we are to study the OT and attribute all the disasters that befell the Israelites and their enemies, we would have to throw away the entire story of Moses, Jericho, Noah, etc, not to mention most the books of the Prophets. I don’t think we have the authority to make such rash decisions.
    Philip says:
    You see these references and allegations go away beginning with the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and continuing into the Pauline epistles and the remainder of the New Testament. That is because Jesus, the son of God, exposed Satan during his earthly ministry. This is fascinating study, my friends. It is beautiful and elegant learning.”
    –On the contrary, references and allegations did not disappear with the NT: “and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly” 2nd Peter 2:5 Who is ‘He’ that is said responsible for the flood if not God?
    Philip says:
    To conclude, Rev. Robertson is overtly wrong in his claim about the Haitians and worse yet, about God. God does not bring calamity or devastation. In fact, as the author and origin of life, He is incapable of destructive acts. God is light, God is life and God is love. It’s that simple.
    –We see natural disasters as destructive acts and so we cannot fathom a loving God enacting such havoc, but remember, God’s ways are above our ways. I wouldn’t advise anyone to put God to the test!
    –I don’t see the earthquake in Haiti, nor 9-11 in NY, as the wrath of God. IF they were from Him, they were mere warnings.
    –I commend you for loving God. I advise you to seek instruction in Sacred Scripture.
    Again, Selwyn, excellent unbiased viewpoint. Thank you.

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  19. Robert Berger Avatar
    Robert Berger

    It’s appalling that millions of gullible Americans take an imbecile like Pat Robertson seriously. Behind his warm and cuddly exterior lies the heart of a fanatic and bigot.
    Any one who can say the 9/11 was the result of liberals,faminists and abortion etc is a contemptible jerk.
    He has every right to his religious beliefs, as ludicrous as they are, but he and his ilk have no right to try to impose their
    social and religious agenda on the rest of this nation.
    And I’m sick and tired of hearing the idiotic argument that only conservative Christians are
    moral people and that any one who disagrees with them on anything is a “moral relativist”(whatever that is) and a damned commie pinko atheist. What a load of of you-know-what!

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  20. John Avatar
    John

    Robert, what’s with the stupid comments? You keep asking what moral relativism is. It’s like you think it’s something Duke made up. READ SOME PHILOSOPHY. It’s a standard philosophical term like nominalism or realism or pragmatism. You’re so ignorant it’s painful.

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  21. Robert Berger Avatar
    Robert Berger

    I’m neither stupid nor ignorant, and am quite familiar with philosophy.
    My question was rhetorical, and you apparently weren’t bright enough to realize this.
    “Moral relativism” is nothing but a straw man invented by coservatives.It’s an all-purpose label used to vilify any one who disagrees with them as being wicked and immoral.
    Non-conservatives and non-religious people don’t think that anything should be permissible and that there’s no such thing as right or wrong. They just have the intelligence to realize that not everything is black and white and that there are many shades of gray.

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  22. John Avatar
    John

    Robert, again, you are showing ignorance. ‘Moral relativism’ isn’t a strawman. it’s a philosophical concept that was mentioned in philosophy long before ‘conservatives’ started using it. Do you believe that humans come up with ideas about right and wrong? or do you believe God determines right and wrong? Newsflash-if you think it’s humans, that’s moral relativism. That’s what it’s called. What would you call it? Bill Clintonism? Eating an orangeism? Walking your dogism? Concepts are related with labels. Stop being stuck on stupid.

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  23. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Dear Stick n Stones,
    I certainly appreciate your criticisms and applaud you for your learned understanding of the Scriptures.
    I read this after my thirteenth hour of work and I am tired. I promise to respond to your challenges in kind.
    I relish and cherish the opportunity to engage you in debate on such an eternal matter of the Truth. I am confident that I can conclusively respond to all but one of your charges.
    I reach out my hand to you as a fellow believer and brother and I look forward to learning from you.
    God’s blessings to you,

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  24. Sticks n Stones Avatar
    Sticks n Stones

    Correction: “In fact, Psalm 21 speaks of us walking in the shadow of death.” — should read Psalm 23.
    Sorry to all for the lengthy post. As I said earlier, I’m pretty new to writing on a blog and in the future, I’ll do my best to make shorter posts.
    Philip, I hope you get some well-deserved rest and I look forward to future discussions of our God with you.
    God bless.

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  25. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    Dear Stick n Stones,
    Your chsllenge to me is considerable and I truly appreciate it. I have thrown in the towel for the night due to weariness but I am working on a respectful reply. I have not forgotten about you nor forsaken my promise. I am simply tired and things are thankfully picking up for me professionally.
    God bless you,
    Philip

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  26. Sticks n Stones Avatar
    Sticks n Stones

    Philip,
    I never meant for you to feel challenged because of my post; therefore no need to throw in the towel. Another opportunity will arise if it’s meant to be.
    I am glad that things are picking up for you professionally. That’s all the blessing I need to hear.
    May God bless you with much needed rest.

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  27. John McClain Avatar
    John McClain

    If there were no God of Creation, and if we were truly merely the result of millions of years of random interaction of matter, and one wanted to build a society capable of interacting in peace, and being productive, and at the same time, provide a social framework that could ensure equality of opportunity for all, one would have to postulate a “higher power”, and give real obeasance to that idea, complete obediance, even knowing it is a construct, in order to be able to manage this end result.
    History has shown in such a way as to be absolutely un-arguable, that this is true, as our own Nation has been absolutely unique in most aspects, from its very beginning, in its earliest rebellion, all the way to the time we started down the path of every other Nation which has ever stood up, by allowing the return of professional rulers, to replace “Sovereign Citizens”, and thus not have to live within the laws which they have come to pass. This was fought off vigorously for the first hundred years of our existence, and it is only in the past hundred and twenty or so, it has slowly become accepted to allow the return to “the old ways” which every other Nation has used in some way or another to rule its self, and fail.
    We are reaping the rewards of surrendering our Sovereignty, and giving it over to professional politicians, because they have told us they can do a better job, and we have allowed them to indoctrinate our children into believing this lie. The government we live under today, is the one my Parent’s generation chose, to replace the one founded on Christian Principles and self evident truths, because they wanted to make those who don’t believe in God, shut up and quit whining. I am a believer precisely because I was raised an atheist, and quickly discovered one cannot have principles without having a foundation for them, and truth is the only solid foundation.
    John McClain
    GySgt, USMC, ret.
    Vanceboro, NC

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  28. Philip France Avatar
    Philip France

    God bless you, GySgt McClain.
    You have it exactly right and thank you for your service to and for our precious liberty. I salute you.

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  29. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Well said Gunny

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